Transcript: Henry Huiyao Wang on Steve Clemons' The Bottom Line
From "Israel’s war on Gaza: The view from China" | The Bottom Line | Al Jazeera
Henry Huiyao Wang, founder and president of the Center for China and Globalization (CCG), was recently interviewed by Steve Clemons on Al Jazeera’s The Bottom Line.
The title of the program was: Israel’s war on Gaza: The view from China. The subtitle was China’s role in the Middle East is growing, but can it be a peacemaker between the Palestinians and Israelis?
The following transcript is produced based on the video and hasn’t been reviewed by the two speakers.
Steve Clemons:
Hi, I'm Steve Clemons, and I have a question. China is playing a bigger role in the Middle East than ever, but can it compete with the United States to be a peacemaker between the Palestinians and Israelis? Let's get to the bottom line.
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Steve Clemons:
Last year, after years of hostility between Iran and Saudi Arabia, China was able to get both sides to agree to a day on something that the United States was either unable or unwilling to do. Now, with the war on Gaza in its 9th month, China has presented itself as a major power that's less biased towards Israel than the West.
Beijing has criticized Israel for going well beyond self-defense and argued before the world court that the Palestinian use of force to resist oppression is their right and cannot be equated with terrorism.
For years, China has been expanding its economic footprint and criticizing the world order run by Washington, but will that translate to a bigger diplomatic and military role for Beijing in the Palestine-Israel conflict?
Today, we're talking with Wang Huiyao, president of the non-governmental think tank, the Center for China and Globalization, and he's a former adviser to the China State Council, which is China's cabinet. Dr. Wang, thank you so much for joining us today.
I know this is going to be an unusual show because typically we're talking about what Washington thinks about the world. Now, I'm really interested in what Beijing is thinking about the Israel-Gaza conflict, other conflicts, and really China's role in the world. So, I'd love to get your take on the Israel-Gaza conflict. How is Xi Jinping and Chinese leadership and Chinese population is looking at this conflict right now from your point of view?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Thank you, thank you, Steve. For this show, actually, I think that while this war has been dragged on for quite some time now, it's more than half a year, and it's really devastating to see people suffer there. And also, that the whole world is watching this on a daily basis, yet we cannot solve this crisis.
I think the Chinese position, the government's position, is very clear. China, at the very beginning, condemns all kinds of violence or attacks on civilians. That's very clear for China. But China would actually like to see this not really go beyond the tolerance of human security because we see a large number of civilian casualties, a humanitarian crisis happening, and international efforts and UN resolutions wanting to bring this war to a ceasefire, yet we still have not seen that happening.
That's really disappointing, I think, to many Chinese and really dismaying to the world to see this war still continue. So, we hope that we're going to really see a ceasefire, some peacemaking going on, and we see that the whole world community, and of course, China, can work with them to really stop this crisis that is really happening for too long and too large a scale beyond imagination.
Steve Clemons:
I was interested in various Chinese leaders' statements that from their perspective, Israel's actions right now in Gaza have gone beyond the rationale of self-defense, and I think that's a pretty bold statement from China compared to others that have been made. And I mean, to be honest, I think there are Americans that may rightly or wrongly think they're fair to both sides, they are fair to Palestinians and they want to protect Palestinians, but they have this relationship with Israel that seems to have no boundaries.
I'm interested in how you see this and whether you see America in sort of a hypocritical moment and whether or not China is willing to weigh in more greatly to basically say to Israel, back off.
Henry Huiyao Wang:
That's quite possible. I think that's exactly what's happening. The US used to be the world's policeman; they are trying to maintain a certain post-World War order, but they really look very incompetent now, particularly on this crisis. We see the double standard probably applied to this situation. Certainly, there is a large influence of Israel in the United States, but we even see that influence diminishing.
And particularly for Prime Minister Netanyahu, who still hangs on to power, and the war is really beyond what is necessary, of course, to retaliate. I think there's over 10 times more, which is beyond imagination—the suffering of the humanitarian people, the relocation of 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and particularly the hunger, the casualties, the children, the women, and all those sufferings displayed on a daily basis in your living room, which is really beyond people's imagination.
So, I think China actually, of course, stepped up its effort. China has been talking to all the parties, particularly recently. China has a ministerial summit of Arab Minister meetings with Chinese leaders, and I think China has really hopefully that we should really solve this fundamentally with a two-state solution, stop the fight, have a ceasefire, get a UN resolution in place, and really put this to an end.
This is really alarming, and I think unbearable, with such a crisis going on, with such a large number of civilians, which is really totally beyond control. I think that is really very unfortunate and very tragic. The Chinese government and Chinese people are really getting more and more attention on this crisis now and want to get involved and wants to help.
Absolutely. There is a great desire on the Chinese side to really want to see the peacemaking going on. Actually, recently, the Chinese government has announced they're going to donate 500 million RMB for humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza and really calling for open all the channels, open all the rescue packages, and really see the situation improve and see the crisis stop.
Steve Clemons:
We all woke up in Washington DC one day to the news that China had played this key role in normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and I tell you, it was a whiplash effect. People said, "My goodness, that was sort of America's terrain, that's sort of what we did," and China, in a way, jumped into a role that we hadn't seen before. I'd love to get your insights and not only with Israel-Gaza but China's kind of new diplomatic mission around the region, in surprising ways, and what is driving that right now.
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Absolutely. I think China now has actually increased its soft power, using Joseph Nye's term, but because China now has opened up, and in the last 45 years, China has grown into the second-largest economy, and China has become the largest trading nation with over 120 countries. So, stability and prosperity is vital to China's growth and prosperity as well.
What has happened is that China, of course, for example, you mentioned about the peace deal for Saudis and Iranians, which is great because China is the largest trading nation with both countries. China buys largely 90% probably of what they export of energy to China and to the world probably. And then that's really a big influence.
So, I think that the Arab nations, particularly from Saudis and probably from the Middle Eastern, from the Iranian point of view, they also don't want to see their agonizing positions. They want to have a ladder to come down, and they don't want to do it through the US or EU because they were involved in the wars and in many conflicts in the Middle East. So, they need somebody nice and clean, need somebody credible, and somebody never had invaded or never have occupied any of their territories, and then China is the largest trading nation with all of them.
It's very natural for them to come to China, and China is willing to engage more to make peace. It's in the Chinese interest and also to the world prosperity. So, I think that's where what has happened for making this deal between Iran and Saudis because China really wants to show that they are friendly with both countries.
So, when China says, "Please don't do it, please let's stop, give me face, stop it," then they probably would do because they respect China as the largest trading nation for both of their countries. So, I see that happening actually in the Middle East, even for the Gaza conflict. China is the largest trading with all the Arab nations, the second-largest trade nation with Israel.
I think China used to maintain both good relations with both Arab and Israel, and probably the time will come for China to step in and say, "Look, let's really come to the end, let's really solve this issue, and find a solution to that." And probably China, particularly now with the global South, would have more influence.
China recently did something with Brazil, a six-point peace plan for the Ukrainian and Russian conflict, and I had a Turkish foreign minister coming to CCG a few days ago in Beijing, saying that Turkey is also willing to work with China to help on those conflicts in the Middle East or in Russia or on Ukraine. So, I think there's a lot of things that China can play a more active peace-making and peace-mediating role now than used to be.
So, I think it's also because China has a vested interest to see a more prosperous, more stable, more peaceful world that is really benefiting both China and the world.
Steve Clemons:
Do you think there's a pathway with international institutions to be more effective in these conflicts because I have to tell you, my view is the Secretary-General wants it, can't do it. What is there a resolution besides just having constant paralysis in some of these, you know, horrible bleeding ulcers in the world that involve real people's lives?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Absolutely. I think that, you know, organizations like the UN and, you know, also the Security Council could do much more. The problem I see now is that we're having all these problems in the world, so much conflict on top of that climate change. I saw Secretary-General Guterres mentioned today, you know, we should stop using all those fuel and gasoline advertisements and things like that.
So, there are more challenges facing even AI becoming uncertain in many aspects. So, I think the big powers, major powers, should really get the act together and work together. For example, on the issue of Gaza, I would really see that why can't we send the UN peacekeeping force to station there and actually separate the conflict parties and then make sure that there's a two-state solution being implemented?
Because you know, the fundamental challenge is that those big powers sometimes have different views, have, you know, a conflict among themselves, the sanctions, the trade wars, and all those things going on. So, it's difficult to reach consensus, but even if the United Nations reached the consensus, the National Security reaches the consensus, sometimes it doesn't have an abiding power, sometimes.
So, it's really absurd to see that happen. I mean, the Security Council of the UN is really the rock of world peace, and that is really the things we established after the Second World War, and now such powerful countries formed the United Nations Security Council can't stop a small regional war in Gaza. That's really absurd.
I really think the United Nations should strengthen its implementing power, actually. You know, like UN peacekeeping forces should be actively deployed, used in stopping the Gaza fight, and that's really, I think, what we can do. And also, I mean, the two-state solution, you know, proposed by European countries, recognized by, by, also proposed by China, even the US does not object. President Biden also says a two-state solution. Why can't we implement that?
I mean, there's a consensus for two-state solutions, and let's do it. Let's get a resolution on that to do it. So, this is really fundamentally we have to solve that problem, otherwise, it's really incompetent, not only for domestic politics but international politics. We are paralyzed, and then we get to know that there are showing some new challenges and a new crisis that is going to happen more. So, we have to really put our acts together and stop this war and make peace immediately.
Steve Clemons:
Such a powerful comment. Let me ask you a question more about a geostrategic picture in economics. You know, Israel, the UAE, India, and the United States have announced a new effort to open a corridor from Asia to Europe, maybe it's a different form of a Belt and Road initiative. Japan has announced a new Global partnership with the United States. Is China feeling any of that pressure, or are you feeling very comfortable with what you've got?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
No, I think actually I view this positively. You know, 10 years ago, 10-15 years ago, nobody was thinking about initiating any global development project, and China did that. You know, 11 years ago, China proposed the Belt and Road initiative, which is great. Now, it's real. It's got a chain of reactions out of that. All countries starting to really look for this infrastructure deficit, global infrastructure deficit.
So, the United States proposed Build Back Better World (B3W), and the EU proposed EU Global Gateway, and now we have Indian, UAE, and Europe say, "Okay, Indian, Middle East, Europe, Economic Corridor." Great, if all the countries want to put more investment, you know, put more projects into this, it would be very good.
But the problem now is that we see a lot of plans being proposed, but not really seeing much action. For example, Belt and Road Initiative for the last decade, they invested over 1 trillion US dollars and built 3,000 projects for you know, vast developing countries. So, what are the other countries? We need, you know, concrete results. We have yet to be seen.
But I would like to see, you know, if there's a consensus on the global infrastructure deficit, let's work together. You know, B3W, Global Gateway, India, Middle East, Europe, Economic Corridor, let's all combine that. Who to combine? Let's use the World Bank, let's use the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), the Asian Development Bank, the African Development Bank, you know, European Development Bank. Let's go to those development banks; they share similar charters. And why can't they work together?
So, I really see that climate change is one of the big consensuses, infrastructure deficit repair is another consensus, but let's work together, you know, rather than we all going the different directions, uncoordinated, and a lot of redundancy and waste. So, I would really like to see we can work together, and China welcomes that. Mr. Xi said, "B3W is welcome, Global Gateway, or other similar initiatives. Let's work together." So, that would be a Chinese approach.
Steve Clemons:
Henry, let me ask you a question about Russia-China. I'm sorry, Russia-Ukraine, since you mentioned that. Do you suspect there are more things that China can do in terms of playing mediator, nudging its friend without boundaries, Russia, in and Ukraine, into an arrangement that would end the war and conflict?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Well, absolutely. I mean, China has gradually felt this is really got out of hand because China said very beginning, you know, when the war broke out, the sovereignty, territorial integrity should be respected. But when Olaf Scholz came to Beijing, President Xi said, "No nuclear weapon should be fought in Ukraine and should be utilized there." And then when President Macron came, President Xi called President Zelensky right after that.
So, China is really a substantial player now into this. China has established an ambassador; Le was traveling to those related countries. And now we see, you know, if this NATO and Western-led coalition is really not able to put an end to this war, then there's global South is really getting very annoyed. You know, countries like Brazil, like Turkey, India, South Africa, they all want to mediate and want to do something.
I think China is actually playing more of a role now. You have great terms with those non-conflicting countries, right? You know, Russia is fighting with NATO, with the EU, but China and all the other global South is not fighting parties. So, they could be really in a good position to be a mediator, to be a peacemaker.
And I see that happening. China just issued a statement with the Brazilian and Turkish foreign minister is in Beijing and agreed on many of those points. So, I see more and more the China could be a peacemaker and mediator for this crisis. Of course, we would love to work with the US and EU to work together, but the position of China is clear, you know. If it's peacemaking, let's get all the conflict parties to the peacemaking, peace-talking Summit rather than just one-sided.
Let's get both sides to come to talk about how to end this war through dialogue, through negotiations, through communication. I think that is really the Chinese point.
Steve Clemons:
Well, one of the questions is, is BRICS itself paralyzed, uh, in its efforts? Are the tensions between India and China within BRICS keeping it from playing the role? Do you take the BRICS notion seriously as an alternative way to think about how, you know, power and, frankly, global problem-solving gets done, and we'll make this our last question, but I would love to hear your thoughts.
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I think this is a great question actually. You see that BRICS represents economic globalization. You know, that's actually the attraction we see now. The BRICS countries doubled last year, and we see the purchasing parity power of BRICS is already larger than G7. And, of course, also, the BRICS, there's another 20 some countries lined up to join BRICS, and the Turkish foreign minister told me at CCG that he's going to attend the BRICS Plus Summit the next week sometime.
So, I think you know this is really important that even though there's ideologically or maybe governing style may be different, but BRICS countries all favor economic globalization and favor economic development, and that's the attraction of BRICS countries. Whereas, at the other, you know, all the other alliances, security over security emphasized or military alliances, we see NATO expanded, we see AUKUS, we see Quad, we see Camp David, you know, you name it, all those economic alliances don't really produce the bread and butter but really increase the military budget of all the countries.
So, I think the final solution to that is we still have to keep the prosperity and endanger the prosperity is the biggest risk we cannot really take. We have to avoid that risk. So, the risk to prosperity is really the big risk we are having now. So, I think we have to really push continuously for economic globalization and prosperity. I think that's exactly what China is doing. China built the Belt and Road Initiative, China has the AIIB, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, China joined the CPTPP, wants to join that, and China is part of the RCEP, the largest Free Trade Agreement in the world. And China wants to have all the economic cooperation summits with African, Latin American, Central Asian, Gulf countries. China is a big country pursuing economic globalization.
I see BRICS actually likes that. You know, they want to be part of this economic globalization, and continue. So, I see the difference of this, you know, BRICS, is that even though they are not really so established, there still needs a lot of room to improve, they're not perfect. But I think they represent the right trend of economic globalization continuing. And of course, that is where all those BRICS countries, global South, can find now from the global North because they don't care so much about their economic development and then they care more about you know all those security issues, all those increased military budgets, and all those issues. And that's where it squeezes the global South now. There's more people back to hunger, to poverty, and that's why I think BRICS represents a new alternative of economic globalization where if we are not working together, that alternative will become more and more attractive.
Steve Clemons:
Fascinating, Wang Huiyao, founder and president of the Center for China and Globalization, really appreciate you for joining us today. Thank you for your candor.
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Thank you, Steve.
Steve Clemons:
So, what's the bottom line? Everybody hates the enforcer of the rules, but the hard truth is that the world needs enforcers whether we like it or not. Why? Because some conflicts cut so deep that the warring antagonists just can't find the balance that delivers safety and justice from each other. So, the enforcers make global rules which, of course, tilt in their favor. For almost a century, the US has believed that it alone is the premier diplomatic, economic, and security force solving global disputes and, of course, resolves things its way. But more recently, other countries are entering the field. China's reasons are clear: geopolitical competition with the United States. I don't think China has deep roots and concerns about either Palestine or Israel, but on the other hand, if it can get some credit with Arab states and Iran by playing a balancing role in the crisis, then all the better. And that's the bottom line.
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