Henry Huiyao Wang's interview with the largest newspaper in Slovenia
During Slovenian Deputy Prime Minister Tanja Fajon's to CCG, CCG president discussed China's relations with Slovenia, the US, India, and other nations in an interview with Delo.
As CCG Update reported, on April 20, 2024, the Center for China and Globalization (CCG) and the Bled Strategic Forum (BSF) co-hosted a roundtable that featured Tanja Fajon, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign and European Affairs of Slovenia.
During the event, Henry Huiyao Wang, President of CCG, was interviewed by Aljaลพ Vrabec, a journalist from Delo, Slovenia's largest newspaper. The following is the English translation of Wang's featured interview in Delo.
The English translation was provided by Aljaลพ Vrabec, with no alterations made by CCG.
It is not good for nobody if you are force to choose between the US and China
In mid-April, the Slovenian political delegation made its last working stop in China at the premises of the Center for China and Globalization (CCG). In addition to Slovenian Foreign Minister Tanja Fajon, several ambassadors and diplomats also participated. The central topic of the round table was climate change. The founder and president of the political consulting center is Wang Huiyao, who was once also an adviser to the Chinese State Council and one of the guests of last year's strategic forum in Bled.
What role does Slovenia play in today's world, at least from the Chinese point of view?
It is good that the Slovenian foreign minister visited China and that we talk at such round tables. Slovenia is a member of the United Nations Security Council, so it is important to seek consensus. This time, the focus was on climate change, which also burdens small countries, as we saw last year with the floods in Slovenia.
Despite its small size, Slovenia can be an important country. As a member of the European Union, it can take the initiative of cooperation with China. It is true that China is a huge country, but now we have many opportunities for cooperation, since both countries are in the UN Security Council. The strategic forum in Bled also has a great importance. I saw with my own eyes how many important people come to Bled, from ministers, prime ministers and presidents. But we could expand the forum and invite even more Chinese speakers so that your people can also hear who we are.
Is Slovenia an independent unit for you? Or just a small part that does not differ in any way from the politics of the EU and the collective West?
We know very well that you are in the European Union, but at the same time you are also part of Central and Eastern Europe. I would not classify you as a traditional Western country. Slovenia could have a neutral stance. You could even help to improve China-US relations. The American president will probably again be Donald Trump and his wife is from Slovenia.
If you have the will, you can become a link between China and the European Union, between China and Central Europe, and also between China and the United States. You can also become part of the new Silk Road. You can be Chinese partners, but still part of Europe. None of this should be excluded.
Do you feel that we don't respect China enough in Europe and the US?
Partly for sure. Just look at how few people from Europe come to China. The head of the Bled Strategic Forum, Peter Grk, was in China for the first time this time, and he saw that China is much different than he had imagined.
I think that it is only beneficial for Slovenia if it has good relations with everyone. We already participated together in the 14+1 group (cooperation between China and the countries of Central and Eastern Europe), but due to the pandemic and the war in Ukraine, everything cooled down, but it would be useful to revive the cooperation again. It was a good project, because the focus was on economic integration and not geopolitical bargaining.
This time at the round table you talked about climate change, but for several years we have been divided by the war in Ukraine and now also with Israel's destruction of Gaza.
In such a divided world, Slovenia has a unique opportunity to become an important country, as you are part of the UN Security Council. You can do a lot to solve the crises in Ukraine and Gaza. You can organize round tables and conferences, so that as many people as possible seek the peace agreement.
But how can we come to concrete solutions, instead of just talking about peace, which in practice never exists?
The Bled Strategic Forum can become a forum for world peace. Invite everyone there: representatives of Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Palestine, USA and China. No one is talking now, but to end the war, people need to sit down at the table.
China had already proposed holding an emergency summit on Gaza peace, but the US vetoed it. Slovenia could make the same proposal. We should have more concrete proposals to end the war in Ukraine and Gaza. I was at the forum in Davos, we talked about Ukraine, but there were no Russian representatives. You need both at the table, otherwise there is no point. The place of negotiations could also be Ljubljana. When we talk about negotiations, we could all do a lot more.
Is it really not possible to stop Israel's destruction of Gaza with concrete actions? Is the rest of the world completely powerless against the Israel-US alliance?
I have no other answer than to say once again that we need more talks and peace proposals. In the USA they know that they have no moral basis to defend Israel. They can't veto forever, so we need as many peace proposals as possible, because with each new veto, the US will be more embarrassed. We should put even more pressure on them, which is an opportunity for both Slovenia and China to help end the wars in Gaza and Ukraine by participating in the Security Council.
When the war in Ukraine started, I wrote an open letter to the New York Times. I called for an immediate meeting of the seven participants โ five permanent members of the Security Council, the European Union and Ukraine. But nothing happened. Neither meeting nor negotiations.
Here in China, I have already heard that any war involving USA is only good for China.
It's not true. China is the number one trading partner for more than 120 countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Ukraine, and the second most important partner for Israel. When the Houthis started attacking ships in the Red Sea because of Gaza, it was China that lost the most, becouse Chinese cargo ships pass there. China does not want any war. We want more peace and stability. USA is significantly more obsessed with war than us. They are involved in the war in Ukraine and Gaza, but they still have time for new sanctions against China. This is not a good sign.
The world is becoming bipolar. Countries are forced to choose who they support. But it is not good for nobody if you are force to choose between the US and China. Especially since China is a completely different country than people imagine, because you can cooperate with us on different levels. Of course, China is also not perfect and has many problems, but if we talk, we will surely find a way to cooperate.
What Chinese problems do you have in mind?
We had a three-year shutdown due to the pandemic, the economy is recovering more slowly than expected, we also have demographic problems due to the aging of the population. Due to American sanctions, our relationship with the EU is also strained, but part of the blame for bad relations lies also in China, as we do not know how to present to the world well enough who we are and what we want. Too few people in China speak English, so we cannot explain to foreigners what is really happening here and how we live.
Our political system is different. One party governs, so we have more stability and a five-year plan is based on the previous five-year plan. For us this is a great advantage, but for people from outside it is our great mistake. They say we have an autocracy and not a democracy. Instead of having a conversation, we immediately start putting each other into predetermined categories, which doesn't help anyone. But China should definitely do more in explaining its own characteristics. More Chinese people should travel the world and more foreigners should come to visit us. It is a step in the right direction that we have abolished the visa regime for some European countries. Otherwise, I don't know what applies to Slovenia. Do you still need a visa to visit China?
Yes, still.
This should be fixed. I don't know why the Chinese Prime Minister did not also include Slovenia on the list. My proposal is even that all EU citizens should have free entry to China. So that they can see what is happening here and who we are. That things here are in order and that the system works. But we can also do more to improve the internet for foreigners, because now you need a VPN.
You mentioned the aging of the population. Will China need to open the doors to foreign workers to maintain labor efficiency?
We have reached a crucial point where China's population will shrink, but we still have 12 million graduates every year. We are shifting from the most massive society to the most talented. Although China's population is shrinking, the quality of the population is better than ever. In China, we have almost 250 million people with a bachelor's degree. And every year we will have more.
As we have more and more automation and artificial intelligence, we can easily deal with the problem of an aging population. And even though our population is shrinking, it will be a long time before we will be just one billion. But even with a billion people, we will still be a huge country. Japan still has a significantly older population, so they attract foreign workers, which China also can do, but right now we're only focused on attracting foreign talents. We can take care of everything else ourselves.
In terms of population, you have been overtaken by your neighbor India, with which you do not have very good relations.
The problem is primarily the relationship between the US and China, so all countries must decide who they support. The US supports India, but China and India should also find a common path. They are the largest countries in the world by population and neighbors, which are the reasons why they should cooperate, especially since they are both members of BRICS.
Looking far back, India and China have always been friends. We also took Buddhism from India. The first Chinese to study abroad was the monk Faxian at the beginning of the fifth century, and he went to India, and then he brought many useful things to China.
We've had ups and downs only for the last fifty or sixty years, but still we've never had a major war. Despite all the disagreements, we can cooperate economically and complement each other. India had a higher GDP than China in the 1980s, but now China has five times the GDP of India, so we have a lot to offer in many areas, from construction, entrepreneurship and modern technologies. China established the Asian Investment and Infrastructure Bank, and it is India that receives most of its loans, and the bank's vice president is also from India.
There are many opportunities in our relationship. All our problems are political, but also in geopolitical relations we can see that India does not always follow American dictates, for example in the war in Ukraine.
But isn't it the case that India needs Russia precisely to balance its relationship with China? Because if it stands up against Russia, India would become significantly more dependent on China. This also raises the question of how much the peace is really a value and how much is just something to trade between great powers...
I will answer a little differently. When it comes to peace, China has a different approach than the US. We are looking for economic cooperation, the Americans are looking for geopolitical cooperation. The US has the Camp David association with Japan and South Korea, then there is the Quad association with India, Australia and Japan, let's not forget the Five Eyes association with Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Great Britain, and the ever-expanding NATO alliance.
The US is expanding its political security circle, and China is offering economic cooperation to its partners. Such an association is Brics, and we recently increased the number of members from five to ten. We have invested one trillion US dollars in the New Silk Road for a total of three thousand projects in the Global South. We are also involved in the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership with fifteen Pacific countries, including Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand. We also have the China-Africa summit and cooperation with Latin America and the Gulf countries. These are all economic unions. In the long run, people will see the difference, so more and more countries will look for cooperation with China, which we already see with BRICS, because Turkey also wants to join.
Because who wants to fight anyway? Well, Russia is fighting in Ukraine, but it always takes two to make a war. If NATO had not encroached on the Russian border, the Russians might not have fought. Of course, the Russian invasion is a completely wrong move, but it did not happen by accident. There were many events that led to today's war. That's why I think the only way to peace is economic cooperation. It was China that intervened in the restoration of relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia. We were able to do this because we are the largest trading partner with both countries. Instead of building military bases around the world, we prefer to build economic integration and investments.
Our strength is in the economy, and I think that's right. If you increase investments for the military, it means that you invest less money in education, health and care for the elderly. If we increase economic cooperation, we all make progress, and people who have a better life don't want to fight with guns.
But China also makes bigger investments for the military. And even here in China we can hear more and more possibilities about military intervention in Taiwan, especially in the case of further interference of USA.
Former Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou recently visited Beijing, and he also met with Chinese President Xi Jinping. Taiwan is a completely different case than Ukraine. Because Taiwan and mainland China are one people. We are all Han, so we share the same language and culture.
In the last elections, the majority won parties (the Kuomintang and the Taiwan People's Party) which are in favor of unification with mainland China. It is true that the Democratic Progressive Party, which advocates secession, won with 40 percent, but even in this party they see that there is no future in secession.
The Chinese government has long emphasized that Taiwan's accession does not mean China will burden the island with new taxes. On the example of Hong Kong, we can see how the "one country, two systems" principle works. At most, they will lose an independent foreign policy, but even now there are not many countries that has formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Therefore, if there is no foreign interference, Taiwan will merge with mainland China completely naturally.
Would Taiwan then be allowed to keep its system with more freedom?
Yes, because China keeps saying โ one country, two systems. What applies to Hong Kong could easily apply to Taiwan as well.
But it is precisely the case of Hong Kong that confirms that China's dominance is increasing. And probably the relationship between China and Hong Kong is monitored the most detailed in Taiwan.
There is a lot of talk about Hong Kong, but it has been 25 years since unification. They have passed some new laws, but it is still one country, two systems. People in Hong Kong have a lot of freedom. There's also a lot of talk about political freedom, but next to Hong Kong is a huge China with a unified and strong government that doesn't like that people in Hong Kong are encouraged from abroad to rebel against China.
Taiwan could maintain a different system and special benefits. I don't know why Taiwan would want secessions and wars. Even China does not want war, at least if there is no foreign interference and Taiwan's declaration of independence. We want peace in China. We have only had an economic revival for twenty years, while in Europe and the USA you have had it for a hundred years, so the Chinese do not want to destroy our good life, which we have just started well.
Can the current status quo persist?
Quite possible. If the Americans do not send weapons and if the American congressmen do not visit Taiwan, we will most likely continue to have the status quo.
But wouldn't it be right for the people of Taiwan to have the final say? Because now we're just listening to what China and the US think about Taiwan.
We are listening to Taiwan. I have already said that in the last elections the two parties that support the unification with mainland China won the majority. There are 60 percent of such people. Lai Ching-te, chairman of the Democratic Progressive Party, which has independence in its program, is also talking less and less about secession.
With all the disagreements and competition between the US and China, we often overlook the fact that there are a huge number of American companies doing business in China, as well as a significant number of Chinese expatriates in the US. So the relationship is not so black and white.
True. Disagreements are introduced by politicians, especially the American one. The rich in the US are only getting richer, so social disparities are getting bigger and bigger. Wall Street has record business, and so do American multinationals, but little of that money goes back to the American people to solve social problems. Let's not forget that China also holds a significant portion of the US foreign debt.
China perfectly fits the US enemy profile; we are a big country, economically we will overtake the US soon and we have a different political system. American opposition to China is therefore primarily political. In the end, it is easiest for American politicians to say that people in the United States are losing their jobs because of China, and we always become especially big enemy in an American election year.
But China always reiterates that it wants cooperation, risk reduction and win-win integration. Unfortunately, in the United States, we are still being described with all possible prejudices, so it will be difficult to resolve disagreements in the short term, even if we they would only benefit from China. For example, in dealing with climate change, because in China we invest a lot in the development of solar panels and electric cars. Maybe in the US they will realize one day that we are not really the problem. There is nothing wrong with having economic growth and a different political system. And that it's not the end of the world if it stays that way. Because we can live in peace. But it is also true that there is always friction when a new power begins to approach the main global power.
How important are for Chine the US elections? Who would you rather see in the position of American president?
It will be about the same with anyone. Joe Biden is more predictable. He uses the principle of carrot and stick, so he is sometimes harsh, sometimes kind. Donald Trump has many faces, so you never know what awaits you, but above all, he is a man who always wants to make a deal. And if he wants business, China is the best country. We have a lot to offer, so we can do business with everyone who wants it.
We're not really too worried about who the American president will be. American politics is pretty much the same al the time, only the face changes. I expect that China will continue to be a major US target, regardless of who is president. But as I say, there are differences. Trump is looking for business, Biden is looking for political stability.
China will also remain the same. We don't colonize anyone, we don't send military troops anywhere, we don't attack anyone... We don't have to worry about us. We may have nuclear weapons, but we will never use them first. We do not threaten like Russia, which says that in case of problems on the battlefield, it will use nuclear weapons. We became the largest trading nation because we are interested in business, not warfare.
How big of a problem is it for the global community that we lack world leaders who are more committed to a just and true peace? Looking at the upcoming US elections, neither Biden nor Trump inspires excessive hope.
Biden is the oldest American presidential candidate in history, only slightly younger is Trump. I think it is not healthy that a country with so many talented people has such candidates in the elections. In the American elections we can precisely see how week is the debate, that we in China have an autocracy and that the West has a democracy. The USA is not exactly a model of democracy if it cannot offer better and younger presidential candidates.
What is the situation in China's political hinterland? Do you have fresh candidates for leading the country in the future?
President Xi Jinping is by no means so old that he needs to be replaced.
But at 70, he's not exactly young.
I say he is not old. In Chinese tradition, we believe that leaders should be older people. We have always strived for stability and a strong leader. With such a large nation, stability is of the utmost importance. If we would have a new government every few years, we would never have made this kind of progress. We have a five-year plan, which is an upgrade of the previous five-year plan, so the government has to follow the guidelines and targets.
We should not judge anyone by how long he has been president, but by how well and stably he leads the country. Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong has led the country since 2004, Angela Merkel was chancellor for 16 years, Vladimir Putin has been the head of Russia for more than twenty years... Under the leadership of Xi Jinping, China doubled its GDP and lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. In terms of economic achievements, he is an excellent president.
People should come here and see what I'm talking about. Leading a country of 1.4 billion people is not easy. Nevertheless, there are no shooting attacks like in the USA, nor are there terrorist attacks like in Russia recently. You never hear from China that someone shot 50 people. Our streets are very safe. We used to have street robbers, now they are gone.
However, no one is allowed to criticize the Chinese government in public.
Our way of governing is different. We have been a meritocracy for thousands of years, it is no different now. Government politicians have to start their careers in the local environment, then they can work their way up to leading positions in the province and only at the end they can think about the national government. No one can come to an important government position with just one or two nice public appearances.
Our arrangement could also be described as a technological democracy. We all use our phones in China and vote with them every day โ what we eat, where we travel, what we buy... All these are our elections when we vote with our wallets. The government has a lot of data about people through mobile applications, for example through Wechat, so it knows exactly what they want.
China has always been part of global democracy. Our biggest opposition is the USA. And the European Union and Japan. Everyone criticizes us, so no one can say that China lacks critics. There are also eight non-communist parties in China. They make suggestions and criticisms to the government, but not publicly through the media.
It doesn't matter if the cat is white or black as long as it catches mice. With the current government, China has become the second largest economy in the world. We obviously did something right. Why we would repeat after US and the EU when we have our own system based on Chinese traditions and values? โ
Wang Huiyao
Born 1958, his international name is Henry. Founded in 2008 in Beijing, the Center for China and Globalization (CCG) is now China's leading non-governmental think-tank. That's not to say Wang doesn't have connections to the Chinese government. He was once an adviser to the State Council (in 2015 on the appointment of then Premier Li Keqiang) and is still the Honorary Vice President of the China Association for International Economic Cooperation (CAIEC) under the Ministry of Commerce.
He graduated from Guangdong University of Foreign Studies, then worked for several years as an official in the Ministry of Foreign Trade and Economic Cooperation (now the Ministry of Commerce) and went abroad for further education. He received his MBA from the University of Windsor, Ontario, and his PhD from the University of Western Ontario and the University of Manchester.
He works in many positions in international organizations and educational institutions, mainly in China and Canada. He is a regular guest at international conferences on globalization, international trade, migration, talent acquisition, climate change, and China-US relations. He has published over a hundred publications in Chinese and English, including a book of conversations with American political scientist and Harvard professor Graham Allison.
In the Center for China and Globalization, they have more than a hundred researchers and employees. They are constantly preparing various events, from round tables, conferences, seminars and lectures. Their offices have been visited by Condoleezza Rice, John Kerry, Kevin Rudd, Lawrence Summers, Susan Schwab, Wendy Cutler...
