Henry Huiyao Wang's interview with RTV Slovenija, Slovenian national broadcaster
CCG President talks on world challenges, China-U.S. relations, China's perception in the West, South China Sea, and Taiwan.
The annual Bled Strategic Forum international conference took place on 2 and 3 September 2024 in Bled, Slovenia under the title, "A World of Parallel Realities." Representatives from the Center for China and Globalization (CCG), the only Chinese think tank invited to the event, included President Henry Huiyao Wang, Secretary-General Mabel Lu Miao, and John Zhao, Director of External Relations and Manager of the Global Young Leaders Dialogue program.
During the forum, Wang was interviewed by Igor Evgen Bergant, an award-winning Slovenian journalist and commentator at RTV Slovenija, the Slovenian national broadcaster.
Below is the transcript of Henry Huiyao Wang's interview:
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Dr. Wang, it is an honor for being with us at this strategic forum. The world is getting more and more complicated, and it also seems getting much tougher. How do you see the current situation in the world from the Chinese perspective?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Thank you for this interview. Actually, this is my second time coming to the Bled Strategic Forum. I was quite struck by the forum's theme, impact, and soft power that Slovenia can harness, gathering leaders of everywhere, thought leaders, regional leaders, and European and United Nations leaders. I think the world is at a crossroads; the world is on fire. And there are not enough people calling for concerted efforts to put out this fire. That's why I see Slovenia, not a big country, but playing such a big role in terms of building consensus and calling for attention to the crisis we're having now. Particularly, for example, last night, there was a performance where Palestinians and Israelis got together to sing for peace. That's amazing. I was quite impressed. The world is getting into deep trouble with climate change, geopolitics, and wars—Russia-Ukraine and Pakistan-Israel conflicts, but we need people who stand up and call for unity: let's face this all together and meet the challenges.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Well, because in Slovenia, there's quite a popular joke that we see ourselves as so small that all Slovenians would fit into a hotel in Beijing. So you see a possibility for such a small country, now also part of the UN Security Council, to do something good for the world?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Absolutely. Slovenia is a beautiful country. It also has a rich culture and diversity. I saw the performance twice at the Strategic Forum and it was very impressive. Now the world is getting so many divisions, conflicts, and crises, we need somebody—more people, actually, not only the big powers but also small and beautiful countries like Slovenia to call up the attention and to tell the truth.
I think the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ms. Tanja Fajon's speech at the opening was quite impressive. She was calling for unity, attention, justice, and peace. I think those voices, particularly when you gather crowds from everywhere in the world, are important to show that Slovenia has this kind of soft power and also the eagerness to express its strong support. So I was really impressed.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
You're probably a commentator on all sorts of affairs, especially economic affairs. You know China, you know the U.S., Canada, and you know Europe. Why is the world like this? Why has it become like this?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
That's a good question. Why has the world become this now? I think there are several reasons attributed to that. First of all, the world for the last eighty years since the Second World War has been largely in peace, but then globalization has encountered some setbacks. For example, the inequality in some countries, rich and poor, but also, a multipolar world is coming up. The unipolar world is probably gone. So there's an adjustment period. But also the rise of China, becoming the second largest economy, takes some time for many people to get used to. So there's a lot of blame around, there's a lot of scapegoating around. But I think what we should do is really should strengthen the multinational system, the UN system. Also, the big countries and regions like the EU, China, the U.S., and the Global South should work together. I wouldn't really think the world has gone so far.
But then information technology, AI, climate, and of course, the rich and poor gap between the countries all contributed to de-globalization, nationalism, populism, war, and refugees. All those contribute to this kind of crisis we're having now. I think now we need some leadership. Slovenia is taking some leadership. You're calling attention to all the big countries and the UN system. Particularly, Slovenia is going to be the Chair of the Security Council for the next while. That is really very important for demonstrating more leadership.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Eventually, globalization is also one of the main topics you're actually overseeing as a phenomenon. You also mentioned de-globalization. How far could this de-globalization go? And what would that mean for China, which is a champion of globalization?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
We are in a very dangerous period. We are in a very risky era. De-globalization is still happening. Particularly, if we're seeing a war happening, for example, if the Russian war on Ukraine can spill over into a regional war or Third World War, we are probably all going to go back to the Stone Age. That de-globalization will certainly continue. Even in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, we already see a spill into the region—the Red Sea and all those blockages, impacting global trade, global economics, global investment, and global confidence.
China, being the largest trading nation in the world with 140 countries, also attracts foreign investment and invests in other countries. All that geopolitical attention would really reduce the confidence. So I think this is a crisis that we have to be extremely careful about. My personal view is that we really need the U.S., EU, and China to work together and come up with some consensus, not fighting among each other or rivaling each other. We should be partners and work together to solve global challenges. That's what I think is the solution—you need all the big players to work together. But also, we need countries like Slovenia calling for justice and that kind of third-country impartial view on how things should be done to persuade all countries to work together, particularly in the UN.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Right now when you mentioned the U.S., the EU, and China, there's something going on that is quite stunning—the tariffs on e-cars from China. The U.S. and Canada are imposing tariffs. Now also the EU, although not as severe as the U.S. Do you see this as a symptom of something which will go? Or do you see this as an announcement that something bigger is going on, the geopolitical tensions?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
It started with the U.S. when President Trump started the trade war and the tariff war. That pattern has been followed by President Biden. Now, Biden even added a 100% tariff on EVs while China hasn't really exported many cars to the U.S. on the EV side. Now Europe is doing that, but I think Europe did that before the U.S., and then Canada followed up. I think it's a wrong approach because, with those tariffs and the trade war coming up, China was only responding. China wasn't the initiator. China didn't start the trade or tariff war.
We are in a climate-changing world and there are disasters everywhere. The temperature is getting higher and higher. We have all the calamities happening around the world. So we need more clean energy. I see that Europe and China now have more renewable energy, which is a great thing. So we should not block the technology or the products. China didn't block the Airbus or Boeing because it's better produced in Western countries. Did China stop buying and put tariffs on them? No, and vice versa. Germany still exports more diesel engine and gasoline engine cars to China than China exports EV cars to Germany.
So you see there's a lot of double standards going on. You can't say China should always produce textiles, shoes, or sweaters. If China can produce some more sophisticated technology, then we're gonna block it, and we're gonna have a tariff on it, which is not the right approach. We should all work together. For example, China can produce very cheap solar panels—very cheap resources for power. If China can do it, let China subsidize the world. Let's all use that for the developing countries. Let's share that technology. I think the EU and China should work together, even with the U.S., to help the Global South on clean energy.
On that part, I have quite a different view. I think it was a wrong approach to treat China as a rival and to think about overcapacity—which there is none, it's a fake subject. For example, the International Energy Agency (IEA) forecasted that we need 820 gigawatts of new photovoltaic installations, but we only can provide 20% of that; we need to spend 4.5 trillion U.S. dollars on renewable energy annually, but we have only spent 1.8 trillion in 2023. It's far from oversupply; it was short of supply. So I think we need to work on that.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
There's a lot of mistrust in the West towards China because of its political system and human rights. There are also political tensions, especially in the Southeast China Sea. There is, of course, a lot of mistrust also on the Chinese side towards the West, in which point: How do you in China see the West? What is the reason for this distrust, including the colonial past?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Since 1840 when the Opium War was started and the British invaded China, China entered a century of humiliations. But China, I think, has already got out of that. China is now talking about building a shared future for humankind. Right now, China has invited more than 50 African leaders to Beijing at the China-Africa Summit, the largest state leader gathering in China in recent years.
China wants to get along with the West. What China is saying is that, okay, the West has a very good model that works for the West. For example, you have a long history, religions—Christianity or whatever—and a diverse culture. Well, China has its own model as well. China has 5,000 years of civilization which is never interrupted. China has a meritocracy where officials are selected from different exams, a tradition for thousands of years. China has this consultative democracy where people gather together to debate and criticize the ruling party, but constructively. So you see, that is really a model China has been adopting. And another thing, China has a very long-range vision and long-range plans—five-year plan after another five-year plan. One party debating another party and vetoing for the veto's sake will not happen in China. So there are some problems in China, but largely China has gone very well, now become the second largest economy and lifted 800 million people out of property, 70% of the reduction of global property at that time. So they must have done something right. I think that is the reason.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
The U.S. is, let's say, a hard power and a big military power. Europe is considered as a big soft power. Yeah, China is considered in the West as a monolith. And that's why there are also some fears because facing such a big monolith brings, let's say, well, it's difficult to imagine, but is China really such a monolith?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
No, I don't think so. For example, I had a very long dialogue with both Prof. Graham Allison and Prof. Joseph Nye. Both are my former Harvard colleagues when I was doing my senior fellowship there. Prof. Joseph Nye was saying, that the U.S. is big enough, China is big enough. The U.S. cannot change China. China cannot change the U.S. We are at the bottom of a lower cycle. Someday, we probably have to accept each other.
Graham Allison, the founding Dean of Harvard Kennedy School—I recently published a book which documented my dialogue with him called Escaping Thucydides's Trap—thinks there's a huge trap, and that the ruling power of the world and the catching-up power are bound to have some conflict. But he says that it doesn't have to be necessary. We can avoid that.
So there's a concern because the U.S. and China have different systems, different cultures, and different ethnicities. People may not know that well, so people have certain fears in the West. But I think China now has, in this year, opened visa-free travel to almost 15 EU countries. I just met a leader from an Italian think tank here at Bled. She just came back from Beijing the day before this conference. She told me she had never been there for the last 10 years. She was so totally surprised. The sky is blue. The smog is gone in Beijing. People are more confident. Beijing has changed enormously. Transportation and all the green things. She was very impressed. So she spent 10 days in China as a tourist, taking advantage of the visa-free policy. I hope that there will be more people going there. I hope that kind of perception of China, probably not a really good perception, will gradually change into a positive perception because if they go and see it, they will be living like us. We don't have any big differences. We should get together.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Because of the role China is playing now in the modern world, and it is a huge role, some people are actually asking themselves, we have a war now between Russia and Ukraine and some consider it as a war between Russia and the West: Could China do more with its subtle diplomacy you're talking a lot about? Could you do more in bringing peace also to this region?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Absolutely. I think China can do more. For example, I think there's already fatigue on both sides. Also, the U.S. election is going on and both presidential candidates said they want to end the war. Particularly, Trump said he'll end the war in 24 hours or before his inauguration time. So if the U.S. or the West in general wants to end this war, they need the support of China, because China is the largest trading partner of Russia. And China carries a lot of political clout with Russia.
For example, I was quite surprised that Ukrainians have actually advanced into Russian territory for almost 1,000 square kilometers of space. Russia hasn't done anything with nuclear tactics or retaliated with lethal weapons like nuclear weapons because China said no nuclear weapons should be fought between Russia and Ukraine. Apparently, that warning has played some role there. So what I think is that now there's fatigue on both sides, and then the U.S. public opinion would not support this war continuously like for Israel, China could come in as a clean third neutral party that can bring both sides together because China is the largest trading partner of both Ukraine and Russia. Of course, when China sits at the table, I'm sure things can really make a huge difference to the ceasefire and China can contribute significantly to that peace process.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
But one thing is very interesting when it comes to China. The People's Republic of China hasn't been involved in a war since the 70s in Vietnam. So I mean, it's really fascinating looking at the world right now where there are wars going on. What is concerning perhaps from the European perspective is the situation in the Southeast China Sea. We speak about the Philippines and Vietnam also, but has it to do mainly with the so-called Taiwan problem?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
I think there are two separate issues. There's the Taiwan issue, where Taiwan is always part of China, like when the U.S. and China established diplomatic ties, the U.S. Recognized Taiwan as part of China. Also, 183 countries all recognize Taiwan as part of China and the Chinese government as the legitimate representative of the whole of China. So that principle is there, that policy is there.
I think there's some tension because China always responds, for example, to Nancy Pelosi's visit, which breached the no-official ties commitment. China had to do some exercise. When President Tsai Ing-wen visited the U.S. where there were no official ties, again, China had to do something. Or if the U.S. is sending some military aircraft around Taiwan, China has to go around and do something. So China is always responding.
But I think China actually wants to have a peaceful reunification. China said many times that it's a priority, it's the preferred approach to have a peaceful reunification. China, for example, in the Fujian province next to Taiwan, the government said, okay, all the Taiwanese who come to the mainland, you're treated as locals in schooling, employment, and medicare, please come. There are already 1 or 2 million Taiwanese working in the mainland. And then there are a half million husbands and wives married across the Taiwan Strait. They share the same language, culture, and tradition. I think in the long run, they're going to be peacefully integrated. Just yesterday, China announced they opened Fujianese people to travel to the island of Taiwan. So things can be integrated if there's no international foreign interference.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
It is an interesting detail. Taiwan, of course, is a very important economic power, the world's biggest producer of semiconductors on the highest level. Actually, the semiconductor industry in Taiwan is a sort of guarantee for a sort of status quo that all can live with—China and the international community. How do you see this?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
China is happy with this status quo, as long as they do not declare dependence or they are not supported by foreign interference to become an anti-China unsinkable aircraft, so to speak. The U.S. companies are very smart. For example, Apple doesn't use IBM or Intel; it uses the TSMC in Taiwan to produce semiconductors, a Taiwanese company. And then they use Foxconn to produce hardware in the mainland, another Taiwanese company. So they became the largest company in the world because they tapped into the resources and talent of Greater China. It's so smart because if they used IBM or Intel, they probably would not be the largest company in the world. Now we're seeing that being threatened with this potential conflict. It's not in the U.S. interest to do that and, of course, not in the Chinese interest. So I think it's important that we maintain this economic freedom.
Now the U.S. has even produced the CHIPS Act. That's not only the U.S. not selling in China, they have forbidden Taiwan, Japan, the Netherlands, and South Korea to sell chips to China. That's overdone. That's really too much because it hurts U.S. company interests. China buys 30% of global chips. They lose that business, and it's hurting their R&D. I don't know how long they could sustain that. I hope the new president will take a more clever approach rather than this self-defeating approach to these Taiwan industry issues.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
My last question is this. Regarding your optimism from the beginning that small Slovenia could do something and that big players in the world should actually collaborate, because it's only one world with very similar problems, how do you, as an expert, see the foreseeable future?
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Before answering your question, on this South China Sea issue you mentioned, I think China gets along with all ASEAN countries. China gets along with Vietnam; Vietnam's Party Secretary-General just visited Beijing 10 days ago. And then Malaysia, Indonesia, all those countries have some issues in the South China Sea, but we don't have any problems. We are getting along very well. And then China got along with the Philippines also very well when the predecessor of Marcos was in power for two terms. China never had an issue with him. Recently, we have had some issues because the U.S. has revived nine military bases in the Philippines and they have reinstated the older military capacity in the Philippines. They keep breaking the status quo, basically. So China has to defend whatever it has been claimed for. Of course, I think there's a way to do it. We should follow the China-ASEAN summit, the South China code of conduct. We're working on the principles of that, but let's work out the details. If Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and all the other ASEAN countries have no problem with China or can coexist peacefully, why can't the Philippines do that? So there must be a way to do it, rather than being backed by the 9 military bases of the U.S. and keeping challenging China on the existing status quo.
So finally, on this Slovenian role, this is very impressive of Slovenia, particularly for the Bled Strategic Forum. Slovenia is not a big country but it can play a big role. It's a UN Security Council member and chairman as well and has enormous soft power in setting agendas, leading discussions, creating new narratives, telling new stories, changing people's minds, and injecting new momentum and dynamism into the global discourse. I see a beautiful place like Bled can have an enormous contribution. So that's why I think, don't underestimate what Slovenia can do. It is really doing big things.
I think the Center for China and Globalization, as one of the most active think tanks, would love to collaborate with Bled Strategic Forum. We have actually hosted Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Fajon. She visited our think tank and delivered a great speech in China. We invited all the UN security member countries’ ambassadors, including the Japanese ambassador, and the newly-appointed Chinese climate envoy, Minister Liu Zhenmin, when your Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister spoke at our think tank. I think this is a good example of how we can work together to amplify our Slovenian voices and to hear the Chinese view that we can work together and build a better future.
Igor Evgen Bergant:
Dr. Wang, thank you very much for the interview, and enjoy Slovenia.
Henry Huiyao Wang:
Thank you.